Diana Buttu & Gideon Levy on Israeli Settlements, Kerry, Military Aid & End of Two-State Solution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnwtKL4yF98
EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: Our next guest has been called possibly "the most hated man in Israel". Gideon Levy is an author and commentator who writes for the Haaretz newspaper. While he describes himself as a "patriotic Israeli", he's highly critical of what he calls his country's "moral blindness" to its acts of war and occupation. Gideon Levy is in Australia for a series of talks, including one at Sydney University on Wednesday night. He joined me a short time ago.
Gideon Levy thank you very much for coming in.
GIDEON LEVY, HAARETZ COLUMNIST: It is my pleasure Emma.
EMMA ALBERICI: You have been called the most reviled journalist in Israel, indeed the most hated man in the country. Are they criticisms that sit comfortably with you, do you wear them as a badge of honour, or do they unsettle you?
GIDEON LEVY: No, I could live without this. But I could not live with apathy or indifference to what I do. What I do is trying to put a mirror in front of the Israeli society which really denies, lives in denial, in terrible denial, because there is a huge elephant in our room, and this elephant is called the Israeli occupation. Which lasts now for 50 years. And we don't look at this elephant. And we think that if we will not look at this elephant, the elephant will disappear.
So I am trying my best to do a quite ungrateful job of the Israelis the stories that they don't want to hear.
EMMA ALBERICI: You worked for Shimon Peres when he was Opposition Leader in Israel, what changed for you in the decades after that to see you change your point of view quite dramatically?
GIDEON LEVY: Absolutely, only one thing. I started to visit the occupied territories and to see my own eyes what we are doing to another people systematically for so many years to other people.
As long as I was a good boy in Tel Aviv you know Emma. I was a product of his early public school, media, I thought that we are always right, the Arabs are always wrong. They were born to kill, they want to kick us to the ocean, we are the David, they are the Goliath. All those slogans, I was apart of it until I went there. And week after week I realised that what is happening there is an ongoing crime.
One people, tyranting another people in a brutal and inhuman way. Decades. You can't remain indifferent to this. I can ensure you, if you would have witnessed what I witnessed in the last 30 years, you would have come to the very same political conclusions.
EMMA ALBERICI: You have said that you dedicate your career to exposing the wrongs of the Israeli occupation, and you have also said that you have a discomfort in any criticism whatsoever of the Palestinians.
Does that extend to Hamas?
GIDEON LEVY: No, it is not that I have discomfort to criticise the Palestinians. I just come, not with clean hands. The occupier cannot just criticise the occupied as long as the occupation continues.
Who am I to criticise the Palestinians? I have a lot of criticism.
EMMA ALBERICI: But if I draw you back to the question.
GIDEON LEVY: Hamas is not my cup of tea. Forget about it. It's not my cup of tea.
EMMA ALBERICI: You can't forget about it right? Because they control.
GIDEON LEVY: The idea that I support Hamas, or I am in favour of Hamas, I am secular, they are fundamentalist, but problem is with the occupier, my problem is -
EMMA ALBERICI: But you can't ignore Hamas.
GIDEON LEVY: I don't ignore but we have to come with this with clean hands and our hands are not clean Emma as an occupier. As a very brutal occupier. We cannot come and see assymetry and say they don't behave themselves, we don't behave ourselves. There is no symmetry. There is an occupier and once the occupation will be over, then we can say the Palestinians do this and this wrong. But first, we have to put an end to this.
EMMA ALBERICI: Yes, but it is all about the firsts isn't it and whilst ever you've got a terrorist organisation that's controlling Gaza, can you negotiate with them?
GIDEON LEVY: It is not about negotiation. It is about getting to some kind of justice. You negotiate only with enemies. With friends I do need to negotiate with you.
And you know also the word terror should be analysed. Israelis killing in the last war in Gaza 400 women and 400 children. Would you not call this terror. Does this not annoy you as much as the Hamas annoys you?
EMMA ALBERICI: But isn't it also true that Hamas stores its weapons in civilian enclaves? That they make a habit of encircling areas where civilians gather so then when the Israeli defence force sends some sort of weapon into that area, of course it is targeting a non-military site, because that is where Hamas puts itself.
GIDEON LEVY: You know, not every argument of the Israeli propaganda should be accepted.
EMMA ALBERICI: But I'm asking you is that not true?
GIDEON LEVY: So I answer you, have you been to the Gaza Strip?
EMMA ALBERICI: No.
GIDEON LEVY: The Gaza Strip is one of the most heavily populated -
EMMA ALBERICI: - but is it wrong, is that a wrong analysis?
GIDEON LEVY: Yeah it is wrong because they don't have spaces to hide their weapons. They are very very poor weapons. And I am not supporting or encouraging them to use violence. Violence let them to nowhere. But where exactly do you want them to put their weapons? And you know what? Where are their headquarters?
EMMA ALBERICI: Probably not in schools or hospitals.
GIDEON LEVY: It was never proven that they were really schools and hospitals, maybe except of one case. Israel bombed so many schools and hospitals for nothing. But where do you think is the headquarters of the IDF or the Israeli Defence Force? It is in the middle of the city of Tel Aviv.
EMMA ALBERICI: Gideon Levy, do you support a two state solution?
GIDEON LEVY: Not any more. It is the best solution, but this is a trained that unfortunately, very unfortunately left the station. We have to realise it.
EMMA ALBERICI: So what is the road to peace?
GIDEON LEVY: I tell you, with 700,000 settlers, there is no Israeli politician who will ever be able to evacuate them and if you don't evacuate them, you don't have a viable Palestinian state.
So you have to ask yourself, shall I continue yesterday's song, the two state solution. Realising that it will never happen. Or shall I think about a new discourse? The new discourse in my view should be equal rights. Say anything against equal rights, what can Israel said against equal rights?
One person, one vote, one state, which it is by now for 50 years one state. The only problem is that it is not a democracy.
EMMA ALBERICI: But of course a significant political figure on the Palestinian side doesn't recognise the existence of Israel.
GIDEON LEVY: Do Israel recognised the existence of the Palestinians, do they recognise the rights of the Palestinians? The Palestinians are recognised in so many resolutions, Israel as a Jewish state. Did we ever recognise their rights? Their equal rights on this piece of land? Never.
EMMA ALBERICI: The Trump administration has notified the Palestinian authority that unless it enters serious discussions with the Israelis, that indeed the US could shut down the Palestinian delegation in Washington, DC within a matter of months.
What impact would that have, and how significant a threat is it do you think?
GIDEON LEVY: It is a threat, but first of they withdraw already from this threat, and in any case, the Palestinians stand in front of an administration which is totally pro-Israeli. Which in many case you are not sure between Israel and the United States who is the superpower and who dictates who exactly.
They are quite helpless, vis-a-vis those, look who are the negotiators from the American side. All of them, Zionist Jews. Very one-sided with a very clear background and the Palestinians and really it's not about the Palestinians, it's about Israel, it's about Israel putting an end to the occupation first of all for our own sake.
It corrupts us, it destroys us.
EMMA ALBERICI: You are here, invited to speak by pro-Palestinian lobby, in fact none of the Jewish audiences have invited you to speak here. And you have also said that you expect some protest is potentially at some of gatherings. Aren't you just preaching to the converted while you're here?
GIDEON LEVY: I am going wherever I am invited to and I'm trying to raise my voice wherever people are ready to hear me. I was in one place with the Jewish community, or part of them not the establishment maybe, but for sure, members of the Jewish community invited me. I am ready to appear any place as long as people are ready to listen to me.
And by the way it is not about being about pro-Palestinian, it is really about being pro-justice.
EMMA ALBERICI: You also have also spoken about, you've called yourself an Israeli patriot.
GIDEON LEVY: Absolutely. I care about the future of Israel.
EMMA ALBERICI: How does that square with your view on the Israeli military and its actions?
GIDEON LEVY: Very easily. That is the way to take care of something, to care about somebody. If you have a relative who is a drug addict, you can supply him with money, he will be very grateful to you. But you can force him to into a rehabilitation centre, he will be very mad at you, but that is real care. And Israel is occupation addicted.
We have to realise it. And I want to live in a more just place and I want to be proud of Israel, and I care about the future of Israel not one gram less than any right-winger.
EMMA ALBERICI: Gideon Levy thank you for coming in.
GIDEON LEVY: Thank you for having me.
EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: Our next guest has been called possibly "the most hated man in Israel". Gideon Levy is an author and commentator who writes for the Haaretz newspaper. While he describes himself as a "patriotic Israeli", he's highly critical of what he calls his country's "moral blindness" to its acts of war and occupation. Gideon Levy is in Australia for a series of talks, including one at Sydney University on Wednesday night. He joined me a short time ago.
Gideon Levy thank you very much for coming in.
GIDEON LEVY, HAARETZ COLUMNIST: It is my pleasure Emma.
EMMA ALBERICI: You have been called the most reviled journalist in Israel, indeed the most hated man in the country. Are they criticisms that sit comfortably with you, do you wear them as a badge of honour, or do they unsettle you?
GIDEON LEVY: No, I could live without this. But I could not live with apathy or indifference to what I do. What I do is trying to put a mirror in front of the Israeli society which really denies, lives in denial, in terrible denial, because there is a huge elephant in our room, and this elephant is called the Israeli occupation. Which lasts now for 50 years. And we don't look at this elephant. And we think that if we will not look at this elephant, the elephant will disappear.
So I am trying my best to do a quite ungrateful job of the Israelis the stories that they don't want to hear.
EMMA ALBERICI: You worked for Shimon Peres when he was Opposition Leader in Israel, what changed for you in the decades after that to see you change your point of view quite dramatically?
GIDEON LEVY: Absolutely, only one thing. I started to visit the occupied territories and to see my own eyes what we are doing to another people systematically for so many years to other people.
As long as I was a good boy in Tel Aviv you know Emma. I was a product of his early public school, media, I thought that we are always right, the Arabs are always wrong. They were born to kill, they want to kick us to the ocean, we are the David, they are the Goliath. All those slogans, I was apart of it until I went there. And week after week I realised that what is happening there is an ongoing crime.
One people, tyranting another people in a brutal and inhuman way. Decades. You can't remain indifferent to this. I can ensure you, if you would have witnessed what I witnessed in the last 30 years, you would have come to the very same political conclusions.
EMMA ALBERICI: You have said that you dedicate your career to exposing the wrongs of the Israeli occupation, and you have also said that you have a discomfort in any criticism whatsoever of the Palestinians.
Does that extend to Hamas?
GIDEON LEVY: No, it is not that I have discomfort to criticise the Palestinians. I just come, not with clean hands. The occupier cannot just criticise the occupied as long as the occupation continues.
Who am I to criticise the Palestinians? I have a lot of criticism.
EMMA ALBERICI: But if I draw you back to the question.
GIDEON LEVY: Hamas is not my cup of tea. Forget about it. It's not my cup of tea.
EMMA ALBERICI: You can't forget about it right? Because they control.
GIDEON LEVY: The idea that I support Hamas, or I am in favour of Hamas, I am secular, they are fundamentalist, but problem is with the occupier, my problem is -
EMMA ALBERICI: But you can't ignore Hamas.
GIDEON LEVY: I don't ignore but we have to come with this with clean hands and our hands are not clean Emma as an occupier. As a very brutal occupier. We cannot come and see assymetry and say they don't behave themselves, we don't behave ourselves. There is no symmetry. There is an occupier and once the occupation will be over, then we can say the Palestinians do this and this wrong. But first, we have to put an end to this.
EMMA ALBERICI: Yes, but it is all about the firsts isn't it and whilst ever you've got a terrorist organisation that's controlling Gaza, can you negotiate with them?
GIDEON LEVY: It is not about negotiation. It is about getting to some kind of justice. You negotiate only with enemies. With friends I do need to negotiate with you.
And you know also the word terror should be analysed. Israelis killing in the last war in Gaza 400 women and 400 children. Would you not call this terror. Does this not annoy you as much as the Hamas annoys you?
EMMA ALBERICI: But isn't it also true that Hamas stores its weapons in civilian enclaves? That they make a habit of encircling areas where civilians gather so then when the Israeli defence force sends some sort of weapon into that area, of course it is targeting a non-military site, because that is where Hamas puts itself.
GIDEON LEVY: You know, not every argument of the Israeli propaganda should be accepted.
EMMA ALBERICI: But I'm asking you is that not true?
GIDEON LEVY: So I answer you, have you been to the Gaza Strip?
EMMA ALBERICI: No.
GIDEON LEVY: The Gaza Strip is one of the most heavily populated -
EMMA ALBERICI: - but is it wrong, is that a wrong analysis?
GIDEON LEVY: Yeah it is wrong because they don't have spaces to hide their weapons. They are very very poor weapons. And I am not supporting or encouraging them to use violence. Violence let them to nowhere. But where exactly do you want them to put their weapons? And you know what? Where are their headquarters?
EMMA ALBERICI: Probably not in schools or hospitals.
GIDEON LEVY: It was never proven that they were really schools and hospitals, maybe except of one case. Israel bombed so many schools and hospitals for nothing. But where do you think is the headquarters of the IDF or the Israeli Defence Force? It is in the middle of the city of Tel Aviv.
EMMA ALBERICI: Gideon Levy, do you support a two state solution?
GIDEON LEVY: Not any more. It is the best solution, but this is a trained that unfortunately, very unfortunately left the station. We have to realise it.
EMMA ALBERICI: So what is the road to peace?
GIDEON LEVY: I tell you, with 700,000 settlers, there is no Israeli politician who will ever be able to evacuate them and if you don't evacuate them, you don't have a viable Palestinian state.
So you have to ask yourself, shall I continue yesterday's song, the two state solution. Realising that it will never happen. Or shall I think about a new discourse? The new discourse in my view should be equal rights. Say anything against equal rights, what can Israel said against equal rights?
One person, one vote, one state, which it is by now for 50 years one state. The only problem is that it is not a democracy.
EMMA ALBERICI: But of course a significant political figure on the Palestinian side doesn't recognise the existence of Israel.
GIDEON LEVY: Do Israel recognised the existence of the Palestinians, do they recognise the rights of the Palestinians? The Palestinians are recognised in so many resolutions, Israel as a Jewish state. Did we ever recognise their rights? Their equal rights on this piece of land? Never.
EMMA ALBERICI: The Trump administration has notified the Palestinian authority that unless it enters serious discussions with the Israelis, that indeed the US could shut down the Palestinian delegation in Washington, DC within a matter of months.
What impact would that have, and how significant a threat is it do you think?
GIDEON LEVY: It is a threat, but first of they withdraw already from this threat, and in any case, the Palestinians stand in front of an administration which is totally pro-Israeli. Which in many case you are not sure between Israel and the United States who is the superpower and who dictates who exactly.
They are quite helpless, vis-a-vis those, look who are the negotiators from the American side. All of them, Zionist Jews. Very one-sided with a very clear background and the Palestinians and really it's not about the Palestinians, it's about Israel, it's about Israel putting an end to the occupation first of all for our own sake.
It corrupts us, it destroys us.
EMMA ALBERICI: You are here, invited to speak by pro-Palestinian lobby, in fact none of the Jewish audiences have invited you to speak here. And you have also said that you expect some protest is potentially at some of gatherings. Aren't you just preaching to the converted while you're here?
GIDEON LEVY: I am going wherever I am invited to and I'm trying to raise my voice wherever people are ready to hear me. I was in one place with the Jewish community, or part of them not the establishment maybe, but for sure, members of the Jewish community invited me. I am ready to appear any place as long as people are ready to listen to me.
And by the way it is not about being about pro-Palestinian, it is really about being pro-justice.
EMMA ALBERICI: You also have also spoken about, you've called yourself an Israeli patriot.
GIDEON LEVY: Absolutely. I care about the future of Israel.
EMMA ALBERICI: How does that square with your view on the Israeli military and its actions?
GIDEON LEVY: Very easily. That is the way to take care of something, to care about somebody. If you have a relative who is a drug addict, you can supply him with money, he will be very grateful to you. But you can force him to into a rehabilitation centre, he will be very mad at you, but that is real care. And Israel is occupation addicted.
We have to realise it. And I want to live in a more just place and I want to be proud of Israel, and I care about the future of Israel not one gram less than any right-winger.
EMMA ALBERICI: Gideon Levy thank you for coming in.
GIDEON LEVY: Thank you for having me.
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